Tuesday, May 15, 2007

GW: Automated Tourneys Started Last Week

I, obviously, haven't been in attendance (Note: Originally, my time line of events was....somewhat off. I hate you Lemming. Die in a fire, please.) but I gather the first series of automated tournaments began some time last week. I haven't been following along but I'd wager things have not gone off without a hitch. Still, good luck to everyone involved. And if someone would be so kind enough as to remind me when the finals crop up, I'll definitely try and get some obs time in.


Anyhow, former pal Clamatius (Who's off on a multi-week hiatus of his own, I note with a certain rueful sense of e-irony.) posted his thoughts on the matter some time ago (As did I). I'll note that the tournament's schedule has, in fact, changed in the interim. And I'm only sorry I wasn't around to comment on them at the time. However, I'd like to respond to one point, in particular:


Shiny "Barbie Wars" rewards for doing well are a nice touch. People always seem to respond well to e-peen stroking opportunities.


I haven't heard much about the planned rewards but I'm hoping they're good. The importance of shiny Barbi Wars prizes really can't be understated. People really, really like their e-peens to be nice and massive. Whether it's phat loot or pwnage or whatever flashing reinforcement that, yes, you are good enough, you are smart enough, and gosh darn it, the game likes you it's a large part of the appeal of this sort of online game.


It's just mindboggling how long these sort or rewards have been underplayed and underdeveloped in Guild Wars. But, as I've been saying for a long time now, some kind of viable PvE rewards for PvP play are a no-brainer. Not only do they potentially help dedicated PVPers by giving them goods to trade so they don't need to spend as much time farming or grinding or whatever, they dangle a tangible reward in front of the noses of everyone who might be tempted to try PvP. Playing for the sheer joy of competition is all well and good for some but for people who might be intimidated by the complexity or otherwise run out of the Arena after losing badly, having a shiny prize waiting for them gives them a reason to stick around. Causing enough to not only sample PvP but to stick around and get through the learning stages that the overall pool of PvP players gets bigger and wider. Which is a good thing for everyone involved, of course. And more than worth the time it takes to design and implement such features (With the important caveat of "if it's worthwhile having a vibrant PvP scene at all" which I take as a given. Not everyone does, though.).


Attempts have been made along those lines before, of course. Such as the Jadeite and Amber shards in Factions. They weren't done very well and, in fact, were pretty half-assed but that's Factions for you. But, to me, the idea was that you'd be rewarded for the Competitive missions with these nifty baubles you could use for making your own uber armor or trade for a bundle (I made a killing in the first few days when they'd go for something like 10k or more a piece, by the way.) if you had no interest in the cosmetics. Problem was, of course, that people farming them with bots and leechers ruined the Comp missions while other, arguably easier ways existed to gather those shards so they weren't "PvP exclusive". So the whole thing never really took off but I thought it had a lot of potential. Not only that, I thought it had a lot to offer the game's overall experience.


I should point out that what I mean by "PvP exlusive" PvE rewards aren't ultrapowered gizmos. No Wands of Death or Firey Flame Spittters. You don't want to pass out high damage weapons that are better than what you can get from a collector, say, or anything that's going to throw the game's economy out of whack. No, what you want are largely cosmetic rewards. Exclusive things, things people want, but things that have no impact on gameplay whatsoever. Prestige things. You'd think the developers that came up with 15k and FoW armor sets - which offer some nice visuals but no actual benefits over the run of the mill stuff that any one can craft easily - would find such an idea natural but they've never managed to get it into the game yet.


I mean, PvP players are as vain and as attracted by the thought of fat loot as anyone else. Not because that loot helps them as much as for the recognition of other players. I don't know how many times I've loaded into a GvG or Tombs or Arena match and seen people talking to each other. Not about tactics or skill choices but about how cool this or that shield or sword is, about what the skin is called, about how and where to find it. About the dopey cosmetic shit that has nothing to do with how the game is played and all about the people playing it. Hell, even I'm not immune to it. I spend a considerable fraction of the time it takes to set up a PvP character on deciding which armor to wear and how to dye it. Not because it'll actually help me but because I don't want to look like I just threw my character together. I favor a plain and simple look with matching colors that probably doesn't please anyone's eye but my own but how my character looks, even the facial features and hair are non-trivial, non-random decisions. They matter. I've said it before, as well, but even just to unlock different dye colors – white, black, silver, or even the ability to mix colors first two, then three, then so on – I'd burn Faction happily. Same thing for fancy armor and weapon skins. I might spend the points first to get the mods and runes and skills that actually matter but once those are out of the way, I wouldn't mind looking a bit more distinctive. And at the same time being rewarded for all that time I spend in PvP.


This is one of those cases where Guild Wars could take a lesson from World of Warcraft - loathe as I am to admit it - because there, if I understand my strange and addicted friends, playing in PvP earns you points which you can trade in for various tiers of items. Like all things WoW, there's far too much emphasis on the equipment but the idea of being rewarded with better and better classes of gear as you advance is one that maps easily to Guild Wars and its model of aesthetic and intangible rather than statistical improvement. The hints of such a scheme are there, they just haven't been taken far enough or implemented well enough yet.


Take cape trims. Win or place in an important tournament and your guild gets a fancy trim on your capes. Which would be great if it wasn't reserved for the few guilds capable of playing on that level. The reward is there, it's something that you can only get if you PvP enough, not through PvE, and it's something that doesn't have a concrete effect on the game. Yet, at the same time, I've heard that those guilds were able to sell spots in their guild just so people could have those trims. Those rewards have value, then, of some sort even if it's only to set someone apart from the crowd. If people are willing to pay for them then even more people want them and that means they'll be willing to work to earn them for any number of reasons. To distinguish someone who PvPs from someone who PvEs. For the prestige factor. Because it gives them something to do. The problem being that it's such a rarified reward that no one's going to pick up GvGing to gain it. There's just way too much effort ad time involved. While for the people who gain it, it's not really that important. On the other hand, if you could get a fancy trim or newer and better icons and patterns if your guild had, say, more than 1100 rating (And again at various levels around the way) I think it would draw people in.


You can say similar things about Celestial Sigils when the game first started - the problem there wasn't that they weren't worthless and that they were too rare and too hard to get. The average player couldn't hope to lay hands on one, they were something for the hardcore, and served, mainly, as a barrier to getting people involved in GvG play and to make the elite PvPers at the time filthy stinking rich (When the game's economy was still developing, to boot.).


Want to know what I think the biggest spike in interest in Tombs has been over the past year? The discovery that you could get a rare minipet Ghostly from the chest from winning. That one little, inconsequential item probably launched more groups than any rule tweaks or balance changes ever will.


From what I've heard about the rewards and the Xunlai tourney wagering, I'm not too thrilled about the prospect. It seems like, again, the rewards aren't going to be good enough if they're in reach of your average player. And if they are good enough they're going to be well out of reach of all but the PvP elites. Either way, it'll be another wasted opportunity.

2 comments:

Lemming said...

ATs started last week, fyi. :p

They're terrible during american hours. Prior to the fix a couple of days ago that stopped tournaments from operating with less than 8 teams playing, top-ranked guilds in all time zones were entering tournaments and forfeiting just for free qualifier points, since all forfeits were placed according to ladder rank.

I'm not convinced that financial incentives are the only aspect to the solution, though. During the first double fame 6v6 weekends, there was a marked influx of people who'd otherwise never have HAd, ranging from top-end GvGers looking for tigers to scrubby PvEers looking for deers. (I'd know; I was among the latter that time.) I think that the number of PvEers PvPing that weekend had more to do with the accessibility of the reward (fame) than with anything else.

Of course, I can't think of any way that this can be implemented well in GvG.

Also, the 14-day restriction sucks. I have another week to go before I can AT with my guild. :(

Sausaletus Rex said...

ATs started last week, fyi.

Whoops. Yeah, I actually wrote that bit last week, realized I didn't have anything more to say than, "The ATs are starting. Yeah, that's great." and shelved it. I have a lot of GWBlogging stuff piled in the back, I just can't be arsed to finish it. I neglected to change it when I finally thought of more to add, I guess. Saus go fixy now.

top-ranked guilds in all time zones were entering tournaments and forfeiting just for free qualifier points, since all forfeits were placed according to ladder rank.

Hah! So much for months and months of getting things right. Not to mention, ladder rank's based on the ladder which is based off of the GvG reduced k-value screwiness so it's not exactly a good indicator of how good a team is. So, yeah, I don't know why the hell they thought that ranking forfeits by rank was a good idea.

Also, the 14-day restriction sucks.

I hear ya. But, why, just imagine the chaos that could happen if people could join and leave guild whenever they wanted! I mean, people might find a way to abuse the system and gain qualifying points without earning them!

I think that the number of PvEers PvPing that weekend had more to do with the accessibility of the reward (fame) than with anything else.

As I see it there are two parts of the equation which will entice more players (Not just PvErs, new players, people who might pick up the game again with GW:EN, whatever. But, somehow, to create an influx of new players to the PvP scene to replace, well, people who've left like me.) into PvP with rewards.

The first, as you say, is accessibility. A reward that only a handful of people can earn like the $100k tournament prizes has its place, sure, but if you're talking about something to grab the average player off the street, then it has to be reasonably attainable. Or at least seem to be with a decent amount of effort. It's what I was trying to get at with the idea of tiers of rewards. You don't need a big prize pool, you don't need some fancy, all-powerful and ultra-rare reward, you need a series of carrots. The analogy here would be of a trail of candy pieces. Small, simple, constant rewards for progress leading a player down the path you want - in this case, getting better at, more interested, or more involved with PvP.

The other, as I see it, is value. Whatever you're giving out as a reward has to mean something. Fame, faction, and other title track points work really well as rewards, when you get right down to it. And if you're interested in getting them, then things like the double fame weekends are great. And lots of people are going to take part for the e-peen factor (The Tigers, say.) or because of the prestige factor (The Deers which are more necessary because you can't find groups if you don't have a certain level of experience indicated by your fame rank.). You can say similar things about glad points and champion points and increasing your faction cap. But, those rewards for playing PvP are only good for playing PvP. A better fame rank doesn't, as far as I know, do anything for getting groups in the DoA. Nor does having more faction and more unlocks do anything for your average PvEr. They don't matter unless you plan on continuing to PvP so they're not very good at enticing people into PvP. Which, again, I really think the game needs such mechanisms in order to be healthy.

While, at the same time, the rewards you get for PvEing matter quite a great deal when PvPing. Maybe not as much as they did when the game was first introduced but you gain skill points and skill caps and equipment and other things you can take from PvE and use in PvP. You really can't do the opposite. So, what I'm trying to suggest is creating rewards that do exactly that. Feed PvP rewards into PvE play the way PvE feeds into PvP. Things you can earn in PvP that will be meaningful in PvE. Things that someone who's kinda, sorta on the fence about trying PvP can look at and go, "Huh, I really want that so maybe I'll give this PvP a whirl."

The obvious solution - to me, anyway - is fat, exclusive loot you can keep for lengthening your e-peen or sell for money for whatever it is you want. There are other ways of doing it, I'm sure, (You could, for example, offer exclusive updates to your Guild Hall bought with faction or reward points. Maybe put in shrines to the gods or an NPC that will start a fireworks display, whatever. They've got lots of bright, talented designers who are paid to come up with this stuff, I'd just like to see them thinking about how to create a better, overall, situation for their players.) but my point would be not trying to entice the large PvE base into the PvP scene is a huge wasted opportunity.

It's a fine balancing line because if you make something too accessible then you destroy all its value. But if you make something too valuable it's likely going to be rare and out of the hands of the target you're aiming at.

As for implementing it with GvG, I don't think it'd be that hard. You already have methods of turning in any number of points. Faction points to the priest of Balthazar, Reward points at the Xunlai guys, I take it, the Pirate/Goth points from GW:F, and all you'd have to do would be to add a bit more options, some more things to buy with those points. Maybe you have to add a new set of points, repurpose Champion points (Making them easier to get, for one), and/or add a new NPC. But the mechanisms for rewarding participation in GvG, in PvP in general are already there so I don't think it would be too much work.

Now, keeping people from exploiting those mechanisms to unfairly reap rewards, well, that's probably a lot more involved but, really, they've needed to work on that sort of thing for a while now.